Wednesday, October 31, 2007

Thio Li-Ann: A (partial) Defence and a Call for Civility

Thio Li-Ann: A (partial) Defence and a Call for Civility


The last two weeks in particular have seen some of the most heated exchanges in Parliament and the press in recent years. The cause of it all: the 377A debate. NUS Law Professor, Thio Li-Ann last week delivered a fiery speech in Parliament that drew the ire of the pro-repeal camp. Needless to say, she has become the subject of much criticism and furore on the internet.

Her more outspoken detractors include people like Alex Au, Cherian George, Janandas Devan, Alfian Sa’at and somewhat refreshingly, a year 1 law student at NUS. They have, so they claim, taken to pieces the argument that Professor Thio put forth in Parliament. Cherian George called her speech a diatribe whilst the year 1 law student who remains unnamed claims that Professor Thio makes fanciful leaps of logic and makes highly rhetorical statements.

The debate will never cease. But over the past few days, I have seen how this whole episode is becoming a rather childish fracas. Emotions understandably run high on both sides, but this begets the question: is there no room for civil debate for all?

I have become a firm believer of civil discussion. From my days of yonder when I was a hot headed debater that sought to do nothing else but put the other side down unglamorously, I now see that arguments can be put forth more impressively without personal attacks.

Let’s analyse excerpts from a few speeches (I don’t have time to go into more detail), beginning with Professor Thio’s.

Let’s face it, Professor Thio made some highly insensitive remarks in Parliament that perhaps should never have been made. She likened anal sex to shoving a straw up your nose and drinking from it. She called homosexuality an abomination and a threat to society. Some bloggers online stated that she engaged in insults and name-calling of gays in society.

Alfian Sa’at then joined the fray, sending Professor Thio an email telling her that she was “fucked up” and that he would “piss on her grave” the day that 377A is repealed as revenge for her “hatemongering.”

Cherian George then states that her speech was a diatribe and then takes a potshot at her by sarcastically likening her to the “standard bearer of what Singapore intellectuals and our world-class universities have to offer to public discourse”, and implicitly stating that she lacked any sort of rationality or reason.

A year 1 law student too blogged about this. She began well by stating that Professor Thio engaged in senseless rhetoric and fanciful leaps of logic. But one read of her post exposes the reader to an endless piece that is dripping with sarcastic venom and indirect personal attacks.
And of course, who can leave out prominent activist Alex Au from this whole debate? Au posted a copy of Alfian’s email on his website coupled with his comments. He took a rather adverse stand: “When the Religious Right (and this includes Thio) are out to bludgeon me psychologically, socially and politically, they don't deserve respect or civility from me.”

A Call for Civility

One hallmark trait underlines all the above excerpts: they either lack civility or promote a lack of civility. Personal insults are hurled from both sides, each seeking to hurt each other more. I don’t agree with such a stance

I’ve always been a firm believer of separating the message from the messenger. Conflating the two always leads to roused emotions and needless attacks on the other. For example a scenario where I claim that Saddam Hussein was a great and benevolent leader. A criticism that separates the message from the messenger would merely state that Saddam was not a great and benevolent leader and that he killed his own people. But if the message and messenger are conflated, then a criticism would say that “Shangjun’s statement merely highlights the extent of his ignorance.” Engaging in the latter kind of argument, I submit, would most often lead to more productive debates.

Professor Thio was wrong to make such insensitive remarks. But I believe that for the pro-repeal camp to reply with even more scathing attacks on Professor Thio makes them no better than her. If a friend of mine is murdered, it would not be doing justice for me to kill the murderer in return. It would result in me being considered no better than a murderer myself. In other words, I submit that the more admirable technique of criticism is to respond with cogent, well thought-out arguments that hit at the core of the issue. Bringing in emotive responses only serves to cloud the mind and blows a haze over the debate.

Unfortunately, this has not been the case here, nor has this been the case in the evolution-intelligent design controversy that I am following with utmost interest as well. But having read many pieces from intelligent design advocates and from conversations with friends like Choo Zheng Xi (www.theonlinecitizen.com), I am convinced that it is completely possible to put forth a top-notch argument in a civil manner.

A Diatribe?: A (partial) defence for Professor Thio

Cherian George claims that Professor Thio’s speech was a diatribe. Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines a diatribe as “a bitter and abusive speech or writing” or “ironic or satirical criticism.”

As much as there were some portions of the speech that could be considered a diatribe, I think that to label her entire speech as such just fuzzes the issue. It brings across the sense that Professor Thio’s entire speech was devoted to abusing gays and insulting them – it was not.

Whittled down to the core and taking away her offensive remarks, I see it as a well-thought out argument. It covered a lot of ground and most importantly, it rebutted MP Siew Kum Hong’s arguments. Like a lawyer worth her salt, she made impressive distinctions – most recently reflected in her op/ed piece in the Straits Times yesterday where she distinguished between religion’s influence in politics and religion’s influence in public debates.

What I see as the strongest points of her argument was this: she was arguing against giving the gays a free hand to forever change the landscape of Singapore. She argued that the gay lobby was out to push for full recognition of gay rights which would eventually cumulate in allowing same-sex marriages. She argued that “[Gays] adopt a ‘step by step’ approach to hide how radical the agenda is. Liberals never ask: what happens next if you repeal 377A. Responsible legislators must see the Big Picture. She then stated the 5 steps that gay activism would take which included, inter alia, legislating an age of consent for gay sex and finally the legalisation of marriage and same-sex family adoption.

To put it in easier language, she was arguing for the protection of the status of the heterosexual family. She was pandering to the majority of Singaporeans who had already stated in an NTU survey that they would like to see 377A kept for reasons similar to hers. She engaged in populist arguments – protect the institution of marriage! Keep the family unit heterosexual! Protect public morality! These may be arguable and contentious points, but they were points that people (and the MPs) could identify with. And as much as it could have been motivated by religious influences, it is arguably a secular one as well. From my own (admittedly selfish) point of view, I would not like to see a Singapore where people of the same sex can marry.

The final decision as stated by PM Lee Hsien Loong was, I argue, exactly what Professor Thio had argued. I read it as a situation in which the NTU survey was the final nail in the coffin. Professor Thio’s argument worked.

I stand on the “Keep 377A” side as a silent majority. I do it not for religious reasons but because I am one of the Singaporeans who sees the ideal family unit as consisting of a mother, a father and children – just like what PM Lee said. I do not have great legal arguments against the repeal of 377A and in fact I think that the legal arguments are slanting (though not overwhelmingly) towards repeal. But I also believe that keeping 377A just keeps the door stopper there in preventing the advancement of the gay purpose. As the government stated: the law is in an uncomfortable state, albeit dangerous state (see Michael Hor’s recent comments on how keeping 377A is a perilous path). I want to see the family unit kept heterosexual. As a result, the gay lobby will take longer to push for the legislation of same-sex marriages although I think it is just a matter of time.

In closing, I’d wish to make a call for civil debate. Let us thrash this issue out. In time, I believe 377A will be repealed. But until then, let’s keep things civil and constructive. Voltaire once said: “I disagree with what you say, but I’d defend to death your right to say it.” I’ll defend yours, and I’ll defend mine as well.



17 comments:

ILMA said...

You still have not addressed WHY heterosexual sex is morally superior to homosexual sex. You claim that you are not a supporter for keeping 377a on religious grounds --> then on what grounds? What is this public morality that you speak of? What grounds is it built on?

The question the pro repeal camp is asking is simply this, "IF you have already stated that you are NOT going to prosecute me, WHY are you still keeping that law?" There is no gay agenda advancement here --> its asking a very simple question. And Thio Li Ann took it to a level that went far beyond what the original intent was. Its all pure speculation!

We should simply address the question as it is. IF homosexual sex (or homosexuality for that matter) is that repulsive and morally decadent, then declare it as so. Enact the law then based on this, and ENFORCE it. Leave no ambiguity in the system.

A good example would be Saudi Arabia. The state readily beheads criminals including homosexuals without an ounce of shame or remorse. Why? Because it readily declares itself as a Muslim state, hence its legal system and constitution is built on Islamic principles. There's little one could argue here.

Singapore is supposedly a pluralistic, democratic state, with no adherence to any one religious code. Therefore, in keeping 377a, which is mind you, essentially a relic from the Judeo-Christian legal system of the former Christian British empire, you have to explain clearly to the people on what grounds are you doing this. Explain to the people clearly WHY is homosexual sex wrong. Tell the people in the face that our laws are based on certain religious teachings.

Then wonder again to yourself, SHOULD THEY??

Anonymous said...

Divorce rates up. Adoption rates up. Single parent family up. deliquency rates up.

Family unit. What family unit?

The Singapore Daily said...

Hi, you've been featured in The Singapore Daily [singaporedaily.wordpress.com]. Keep blogging!

shangjun said...

Dear ILMA,

thank you for posting. I am glad that i did not address why heterosexual sex is morally superior to homosexual sex. that was not my intention and i do not wish to be drawn into that debate.

The focus of my writing was to comment on the (lack of) civility in the debate and also to try and understand the basic point that Thio was trying to enunciate insults aside).

What i was trying to bring across (and i may not have done that well enough, and i apologise for that) was a kind of analysis of Thio's speech and what the core of her speech actually was. I tried to blow away the chaff her offensive remarks created to see the basis of her speech. In doing so, i was hoping to show how her speech in essence was not entirely a diatribe as what Cherian George claims. I tried to bring across the fact that a lot of her speech was targeted at pandering to the preferences of the general population as reflected in the NTU survey. I tried also to suggest how although her religious views may have influenced her thinking, a lot of what she said in parliament was secular.

What i was also lamenting was the lack of civility in the debate. in this respect, i agree with Alex Tan (http://www.straitstimes.com/ST%2BForum/Online%2BStory/STIStory_172399.html), who said that both sides have become lost in the debate. Clear heads and cool emotions would do much to further the discussion on this issue.

If i may digress in closing, I was thinking that one way the gay community could influence the government to finally repeal 377A would be if scientific evidence becomes overwhelmingly in favour of the theory that homosexuality is an inborn trait. I don't profess to know much about this, but if proven so, then the government would find it even more hard pressed to criminalise an element of nature. But objectively speaking, i cannot be sure about this because when i think about Kleptomania, i see that the law does not make any exceptions for Kleptomaniacs although judges are usually willing to give lighter sentences.

The Gay community should follow the lead of NMP Siew Kum Hong (siewkumhong.blogspot.com) in his impartial and principled approach to this issue. with more rational debate looming in future, i am hopeful that the law will be altered to allow it to get out of the uncomfortable position it currently is in.

Anonymous said...

Since your argument rests on a hypothesis, let us entertain it to its logical conclusion. If the repeal goes through and the gay community does indeed start lobbying for same-sex marriage, what do you think will happen? Will our ROM simply cave in and start accepting bookings from gay couples?

Looking at the example of California, where anti-gay-sex laws were struck off the books decades ago, the campaign for same-sex marriage was swiftly opposed and headed off by Proposition 22. Now if one of the more liberal states in America could respond in such a way to same-sex marriage, wouldn't you say Singaporeans would be stirred to similar action? Can you honestly say you could see the day the law in Singapore will recognize a union that is not between a man and a woman? *Where* is this fear of the heterosexual family unit being eroded coming from?

I have heard this slippery slope argument from the anti-repeal camp ad nauseum, and nothing has persuaded me it is not built on conjecture and irrational fear. Do you seriously think gay people will "forever change the landscape in Singapore" (since when has a minority been able to exert such influence)? If so, maybe you could elaborate on how? It's fine to speak of the 'Big Picture'. But what exactly is in this 'Big Picture'?

P.S. If you have read the news, you would know that Alfian Sa'at did not "join[ed] the fray"; his email was dated Oct 12, more than a week before Dr Thio's dazzling parliamentary speech.

Anonymous said...

Hi shangjun, are you gay?
Seems like you're not.
A gay person growing up in an environment of relentless hostility and condemnation by the religious self-right would not naturally and understandably respond in a polite, civil way. Bear in mind that gays just want to live our lives in peace, but when provoked unjustly by vocally diabolical speeches (check out the local churches sermons...), there is no way for civility to be maintained.

Just look at how NMP Siew started the debate in a civil, clear-headed way, only to see NMP Thio pounce onto the stand with her (civil?) outpouring. Look at how MP Baey and others spoke in an issued-centred manner.

Thio is a good example of the way many self-righteous snobs respond to the issue. `You're dirty, sinful, decadent, condemned, perverted, etc'....such tags are either expressed or implied in their declarations. They are out to make war...you can tell from Thio's title for her speech. She deserves no civility.

shangjun said...

Thank you for all your comments (:;

1) where does the fear of the heterosexual family unit being eroded coming from?

From our own uninformed selves. and from the uninformed selves of many of the other silent people out there like me. which is why i think the way forward is civil discussion.

2) A gay person growing up in an environment of relentless hostility and condemnation by the religious self-right would not naturally and understandably respond in a polite, civil way.

I understand. which is why i do not think that Prof Thio's speech is appropriate. but if there is a time to start civil discourse, it is now. Mrwangsaysso, Alfian Sa'at, Siew Kum Hong and others have already stated that we should move on from here. and move on we should! let's resign this ugly fracas to history and see how both camps can temper their ideologies, emotions, words better towards each other.

society would not benefit from sludge fests on both sides. but it would benefit if both sides were to present arguments with the hope that the best balance in society can be gotten. (:

ILMA said...

Hi Shangjun,
Thanks for responding to my comment. If I had appeared to be offended by your post, I apologize, I was not.

Not sure if you had seen my own post on this on my blog. Maybe my position would be brought forth clearer from that post.

Anyway, I appreciate your views, and take care.

shangjun said...

Dear ILMA,

Thank you for your follow-up reply. I am grateful just for the opportunity to do my part to contribute to fair and civil discussion in regarding this issue.

I will be sure to read your own blog post on this (:

Blessings,
Shangjun

Anonymous said...

Shangjun, you said: What I see as the strongest points of her argument was this: she was arguing against giving the gays a free hand to forever change the landscape of Singapore. She argued that the gay lobby was out to push for full recognition of gay rights which would eventually cumulate in allowing same-sex marriages. She argued that “[Gays] adopt a ‘step by step’ approach to hide how radical the agenda is. Liberals never ask: what happens next if you repeal 377A. Responsible legislators must see the Big Picture.

I believe you're referring to the term "slippery slope". What if I used the same argument on religious-fundamentalists who, in a hypothetical situation, ask for more rights to be awarded to religious groups when it comes to enacting laws?

Can I also argue that religious fundamentalists like Ms. Thio has forever changed the secular landscape of a nation like Singapore?

What happens next if we further seek that half of the elected MPs are Christians? What happens if one day we decide to declare ourselves as a Christian nation? I hope you see my point - if the anti-repeal camp can go on ranting about a "slippery slope", there's no stopping them to push for more rights to be given to other religious groups. Can you ensure that Ms Thio doesn't have the same agenda in her mind? And by the same breath I can also argue that Ms Thio is taking a step-by-step approach to hide how radical her religious agenda is.

In your paragraph beginning with "I stand on the “Keep 377A” side as a silent majority...

I am in the opinion that there's nothing wrong with the advancement of the 'gay purpose'. At this point in time, gays are asking for the right to be treated equally as everyone else. Ms Thio has argued that gays are given equal rights, like everyone else, but she has conveniently forgot that heterosexuals are not labelled as 'criminals' when they have sex. It's precisely this 'right' that gays don't enjoy.

If a purpose makes a society more open-minded, compassionate and civil, why not? It doesn't matter if the family unit is kept heterosexual because I can always argue that at the other end of the spectrum, there are fathers raping daughters, wives abusing husbands, and children killing each other. Then wouldn't the society be better off if we didn't have any family unit at all?

Besides, what good would it do if the 'gay lobby' took longer time to push for legislation of same-sex marriages? Do you think that heterosexual family units will no longer remain intact once same-sex marriages are made legal? What is your 'ideal' time frame for homosexuality to be decriminalized?

To put it simply, intolerance is like -1 and tolerance with acceptance is +1. Gays are just asking for a 0 - pretty much like what humans ask of each other.

MG said...

You can repeal 377A, legalise same-sex marriages, teach tolerance, you can even teach school kids that being gay is the way to go - and yet the number of gay people around isn't going to change.

Your fear that the 'ideal family unit' will be lost is unfounded. Whether or not the gay agenda is achieved, you'll see 'ideal' families everywhere you look.

shangjun said...

Thanks for commenting (:

- "Do you think that heterosexual family units will no longer remain intact once same-sex marriages are made legal? What is your 'ideal' time frame for homosexuality to be decriminalized?"

I think this is a very good question! and my answer to that would be: i don't know. but herein lies the issue - we fear the unknown. i fear the unknown.

to use an illustration, perhaps consider a debate over, say, whether drugs should be legalised in Singapore. The pro-drugs lobby would probably raise similar arguments. they'll state research from netherlands showing how the legalisation of marijuana has little changed the landscape of the country. they'll say there's no problem and that society may not be harmed. it may indeed be true that no harm would be caused. but we would never know till drugs are actually legalised. and by the time drugs are legalised and actual harm is indeed done, it may be too late to reverse it.

this is what i see is plaguing the majority of Singaporeans - laymen out there who are perhaps less informed about the whole issue. we fear the unknown. repealing 377A may indeed not have any negative effect on the institution of the family. but we will never know till it is actually repealed.

once again i'd like to reiterate that the government would want to take care of its citizens. this may not be the best way to it currently, and the government may be devoid of ideas on how better to handle it. but there is hope for a better balance in the law to be struck in future :)

MG said...

"we fear the unknown. repealing 377A may indeed not have any negative effect on the institution of the family. but we will never know till it is actually repealed."

This is a line of argument that would resist change throughout the law, don't you think? Or do you think you can legitimately confine this reasoning to 377A alone?

shangjun said...

Hi MG. I think that in general it can be confined to contentious laws. For example, we have no problems with approving laws on sexual grooming, child sex tourism, extra-territorial jurisdiction etc because we generally think of these laws as being beneficial to society. it's more clear cut in that sense.

But this is not so for more contentious laws. For example, the case of PP v. Leong Siew Chor and others etc. The government is unwilling to change the law to allow a definite right to counsel because they claim that it would affect the efficacy of the SPF's investigation. Now we have debate on both sides of the issue, each one bringing up a convincing case. But will allowing a definite right to counsel really affect investigations? we don't know. and the government doesn't know as well.

to say that the "we will never know till it is repealed" argument can be limited to 377A alone would be fallacious on my part. but conversely, it would not be rihgt either to say that it is applicable to all other laws.

At the same time, for the pro-repeal side to claim that the repeal would not harm society is not entirely accurate either. the proper answer is "we don't know."

Then it begets the question: if "we don't know" lasts a very long time, is there any hope for such "we don't know" laws to be changed? i'd argue yes! with dialogue and public education, i think it is possible.

But i do think that perhaps it'll take one more generation for the law to change (this is my own unsubstantiated view). My reason for believing so is that the government has considered the opinions of Singaporeans in general. Most Singaporeans as the NTU survey showed (either out of genuine belief or ignorance) are not in favour of repeal. I just think about the average man on the SBS bus and i would suppose he'd be against the repeal. I think what the pro-repeal camp has to udnerstand is that perhaps most Signaporeans are not as sophisticated or as well-informed as they are in their thinking. The average layman may not be as well-informed about gays. They probably do not want to repeal 377A but at the same time they do not know why they oppose it. why does this matter to the pro-repeal camp? it is simply because if they understand it as such, they may change their methods. No longer would their efforts be restricted to intellectual discourses, but instead their efforts would be targeted at the ground level.

sorry for digressing. too much schoolwork to do = too many thoughts on my mind :p

MG said...

Actually the NTU survey had very little to do with the issue of repeal. It was more like "Do you find gay sex disgusting?". It wasn't really "Are you in favour of repeal?". The answer to the first question doesn't dictate the second.

So, really, nobody knows whether the man on the SBS bus is for or against the repeal. Just as you believe that he is anti-repeal, most people who support the repeal believe that he is pro-repeal.

Some people who support the repeal also believe that the "conservative majority" doesn't exist, but is merely a myth created by the Christian right.

To these people, it is deceitful. Saying "this is what the majority thinks" when you don't have any proof of it gives you fake credibility that is also hard to disprove.

The somewhat natural consequence of this is that people think the Christians are pulling all these tricks because they have some kind of agenda.

And because of that, the importance of the message begins to pale in comparison to that of the messenger.

miles said...

Shangjun:

I'm the poster at 5:45pm. I'm afraid that your comparison of drug-users/abusers with gays will no doubt offend a lot of people because really, you're comparing apples with oranges. Let me explain why.

I gather from your posts that you're a Christian. You might have heard of Fred Phelps. He's the American pastor who pickets at funerals of people who died of AIDS. He pickets at soldiers' funerals as well, because he blamed the war on homosexuals. There are a number of videos of him on youtube.

Let's take a moment to consider introducing this form of religious extremism into Singapore. After all, Fred Phelps believes in God and he's spreading the 'Word' that gays should die. And now lets us assume further that I find you repelling as a Christian because Fred Phelps is a Christian too.

But you'll protest, "No, it's not fair. You can't compare us. The Christianity I believe in spreads love. The Christianity Fred believes in spreads hate."

So if you cannot even compare two factions in the same faith, why should you be comparing two issues (gays and drugs) that are of an entirely different nature? Not very fair, isn't it?

You keep saying that you fear the unknown. No offence, but seriously I find that as a lame excuse to let things remain at status quo. If you fear the unknown, then someone must know something about the unknown. What can we do? By learning, we gain knowledge. By gaining knowledge, we conquer the unknown.

Unfortunately people like Ms Thio and Ms Yvonne Lee are using their own personal agendas to accuse the people with knowledge of poisoning the society. They accuse them of "fallacious association…" and having "deceptive political ploy".

So how do you gain knowledge of the unknown when the messengers are smeared with these labels? You continue to be ignorant, be fearful of the unknown, and let others dictate what you think. You suspend all forms of logic because you believe what they say. You do not investigate and question their motives. How then, will you ever be able to escape the vicious cycle of the unknown? (Let this be known that some gays spread half-truths about religions as well, so both parties could be equally guilty)

I'd like you to do us a favour and do a google on Ms Thio Li-Ann. There are various blogs in the cyberspace that completely tears her speech apart (unfortuntely, I've yet to find one that complete supports her). Read them and judge for yourself.

And just for the record, the NTU survey, in my opinion, is highly unreliable. The sample size was 1,000 (which is tiny for a nation with over 4 million people), and as much as I can recall, someone has mentioned that respondents are made to answer questions like "do you find homosexuality disgusting" (or something to that extent).

The way questions are phrased will have an adverse effect on the responses - so unless I have a copy of the form and the breakdown of demographics, I do not think this survey serves any genuine purpose, pro-gay or anti-gay.

Anonymous said...

Civil debate is dead.

Singaporeans cry bloody murder for the right to free speech and this is what we get when you give them some space.

We're becoming the gun-toting, straw-shoving Wild Wild West... even right down to the MAFIA TACTICS of trying to shut up academics(who may not always be right or pleasant, but who have an individual right to air their opinions through public channels).

I hope they arrest the bLastard who threatened Prof Thio. Such low-down cretins have no place in our already fractured society.

This country is going to the dogs by the day... sigh.